Curse

Verene · Sep 01, 2011, 02:59 AM // 02:59

Quote:

There is no such thing as "playing for fun", winning is fun.

I disagree. Maybe for you, but not for everyone. For some people winning at something isn't the fun part - it's actually getting to that point. You keep saying how PvE and getting titles and shiny things isn't fun while playing against others in PvP and winning is, as though that's a universal fact. But it isn't. Everyone's going to find different things fun.

And, honestly, not everyone enjoys competitive play. Not everyone likes the amount of set up that's required to play in PvP (even AB requires you to gather up a group of four people). I can't stand competitive play in anything - from video games to sports. It's not to my taste. So no, I don't like PvP. The most you'll see me do is some JQ.

ErrantVenture · Sep 01, 2011, 03:09 AM // 03:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Verene

I disagree. Maybe for you, but not for everyone. For some people winning at something isn't the fun part - it's actually getting to that point. You keep saying how PvE and getting titles and shiny things isn't fun while playing against others in PvP and winning is, as though that's a universal fact. But it isn't. Everyone's going to find different things fun.

And, honestly, not everyone enjoys competitive play. Not everyone likes the amount of set up that's required to play in PvP (even AB requires you to gather up a group of four people). I can't stand competitive play in anything - from video games to sports. It's not to my taste. So no, I don't like PvP. The most you'll see me do is some JQ.

I don't mean to be rude, but that's more than a little bit of nonsense. You may not enjoy the amount of time involved in putting together a team (which i think you're grossly overestimating, guilds of people interested in PvPing form way faster than pugs or PvE guilds).

A desire for competition is built into you on a genetic level. All human beings (excepting those with brain chemistry issues like a lack of serotonin) are driven to competition. It's a genetic and evolutionary inevitability. Saying that you don't enjoy PvP b/c you don't enjoy competition is a lie. It may not be a conscious lie, there may be some other reason you don't enjoy PvP that you don't feel like sharing. But don't blame it on a lack of interest in competition.

Kook~NBK~ · Sep 01, 2011, 03:41 AM // 03:41

Quote:

You are now making one of the excuses I mentioned

Call it what you want, I'm just telling you like it is. It's the same thing PvE players have been saying for years. It's the same thing PvP players have been dismissing as just an excuse or qqing or whatever for years. And for years the PvP community has been slowly fading away.

Occasionally (not in this case), someone from the PvP community starts a thread here or on other fans sites complaining about PvP being "dead" and they don't understand why. And the answer is, and always has been that most of the PvE players who decide to give PvP a shot are met with elitism and other forms of d-baggery that takes place in PvP and it turns them off to the whole PvP scene. (Yes, crap happens in PvE too, but heroes solve that problem) I guarantee you that if you went to Kamadan or LA and started a discussion about it, most PvEers will confirm what I'm saying.

ErrantVenture · Sep 01, 2011, 04:39 AM // 04:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kook~NBK~

(Yes, crap happens in PvE too, but heroes solve that problem) I guarantee you that if you went to Kamadan or LA and started a discussion about it, most PvEers will confirm what I'm saying.

I don't mean to be an asshole but citing the morons and trolls who sit in spamadan and LA as support for your argument is a terrible idea.

Verene · Sep 01, 2011, 04:43 AM // 04:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by ErrantVenture

I don't mean to be rude, but that's more than a little bit of nonsense. You may not enjoy the amount of time involved in putting together a team (which i think you're grossly overestimating, guilds of people interested in PvPing form way faster than pugs or PvE guilds).

A desire for competition is built into you on a genetic level. All human beings (excepting those with brain chemistry issues like a lack of serotonin) are driven to competition. It's a genetic and evolutionary inevitability. Saying that you don't enjoy PvP b/c you don't enjoy competition is a lie. It may not be a conscious lie, there may be some other reason you don't enjoy PvP that you don't feel like sharing. But don't blame it on a lack of interest in competition.

I'm already in a guild. I have no desire to leave it. Why would I? I don't think that doing so would be worth it, and I highly, highly doubt I'm the only person who feels that way.

And no, it's not a lie. I just simply don't find most forms of competition fun, and for me, competitive video games fall squarely in the category of "not really all that fun". Even if people are inherently competitive it doesn't mean they enjoy the same kind of competition. That's not a bad thing. It just means it's not to their tastes.

Horus Moonlight · Sep 01, 2011, 04:54 AM // 04:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by ErrantVenture

A desire for competition is built into you on a genetic level. All human beings (excepting those with brain chemistry issues like a lack of serotonin) are driven to competition. It's a genetic and evolutionary inevitability. Saying that you don't enjoy PvP b/c you don't enjoy competition is a lie. It may not be a conscious lie, there may be some other reason you don't enjoy PvP that you don't feel like sharing. But don't blame it on a lack of interest in competition.

This is so overgeneralized that it is essentially wrong.

Seeing as there is no current PvP thread in Riverside (and I can't be bothered to start another one), I'm going to slightly hijack this thread. This is coming from someone who use to PvP about as much as PvE (albeit casually i.e. AB/RA/TA/FA/and HA once in a blue moon); if I were to pull numbers out of my ass it would be 45/55 but now it's around 30/70.

One of the main reasons I don't PvP as much as I use to is simply due to less players at my skill level to play with. When I would occasionally HA, I would not have a problem finding a group to play with. More importantly, the relatively large playerbase enabled me to be able to fight teams that were roughly my skill level. Yes, there would obviously be teams that would essentially roll us, but there were also as many teams that we could reasonably go up against. Aside from the fun of having an even matchup, it enabled me to see my flaws at a pace I could appreciate them; getting rolled in ~1 min doesn't give me enough time (or the team) to identify and understand the mistakes that led to our defeat. Nowadays, with my few PvP friends gone and the playerbase drastically reduced, it takes me hours to setup/join a HA team. Once the team is setup, we almost always get matched up against a team far beyond our skill level and proceed to be rolled. This invariably leads to team members leaving and having to repeat the excruciating setup process. PvP needs a vital number of players to keep a format sustainable and HA seems to be below that. What also perplexes me is the lack of a ladder system in HA; just create a composite team rank based on the individual ranks of each team member.

Population is not a problem with TA and RA, but with the former gone and the latter filled with ragers, leechers, syncers, and the retarded change to the Glad title, I simply do not participate in these formats.

One thing I always wanted to see implemented in RA was more PvP types. Why is it only elimination? Add in KotH, relic runs, and control points. The HB maps work well for control points and could be easily altered for KotH and relic runs. Yes I know that they won't be balanced in the same way that 8 vs. 8 of these PvP types are but it would definitely help in getting players feet wet in understanding how to play these effectively to some degree. Too often did my HA team get to Unholy Temples, Forgotten Shrines, or Courtyard and lose simply because a fair share of the members had no idea what to do (I'm not an expert but I have at least some idea). I honestly don't find the dynamics of shrine capturing in JQ and AB to be the same as that in the other formats. At the very least add the HA maps to the scrimmage feature.

I still very much enjoy AB although I don't play as much as I use to, but that's also due to a lack of people.

Jet · Sep 01, 2011, 05:20 AM // 05:20

There is no point in playing PvP anymore. So anyone who are new to pvp and want to get into serious pvp your at least six years late. I'll list the reasons why there is no point in playing pvp.

1. The game is at least six years old. By now most players have climbed well into the hero/glad/champ titles. They are not willing to take in a beginner and teach them since this will increase their chance of losing and /ragequit. Apparently titles mean everything in GW.

2. Top players in PvP actually do not help new players break into PvP. Sure they offer advices and tactics but that only teaches very little. How can you put what you learn into play when you can't even get the opportunity to play due to rank discrimination?

3. If your answer is to form your own group of friends and play, you'll know how hard it is to get 8 players on at the same time.

4. Most people in the PvP community are asshats including top players. This is the main reason why pvers don't pvp. The transition from pve to pvp is too wide. Even if you do play with top players and you make a critical mistake your still going to be bashed for it. No one wants to lose. It's interesting how top players say titles don't matter but they post their titles and flaunt it on guild applications and in towns. Despite this being the internet, how you carry yourself shows what type of person you are irl. Old saying goes. If it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, it is a dam duck.

Bottom line is don't bother breaking into PvP your too late. Their is too much rank discrimination and elitist attitude which makes it near impossible.

Lanier · Sep 01, 2011, 05:22 AM // 05:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by ErrantVenture

A desire for competition is built into you on a genetic level. All human beings (excepting those with brain chemistry issues like a lack of serotonin) are driven to competition. It's a genetic and evolutionary inevitability. Saying that you don't enjoy PvP b/c you don't enjoy competition is a lie. It may not be a conscious lie, there may be some other reason you don't enjoy PvP that you don't feel like sharing. But don't blame it on a lack of interest in competition.

Not true. Competition is actually the second reason why I stay out of the "competitive" formats. I don't like it, because its not fun to me.

Competition comes in many forms. I am somewhat competitive in real life because i need to be (I'm aiming for medical school). However, I have never, ever been competitive in any sort of game. I have played soccer and basketball for awhile, and I also play football from time to time. I never feel any different after a game whether I win or whether I lose - the reason being I enjoy simply playing the game. Its fun and exillerating (sp?). However, when people get really serious about winning, that is when I stop having fun.

Maybe its because I like to relax when I play games, but I simply have never had the mentality of being competitive in any sort of game, online or in real life. You can say that I unconsciously do all you want - I'm telling you right now that I honestly don't feel any different after wins than I do after losses.

I feel as though one of the problems with many of the PvP player viewpoints that I have seen expressed on this forum is that they generalize waaaayyyy too much. Because a player and his friends think winning is the only way to have fun, that must be true for all people. Because a player and his friends are naturally competitive, the same must be true for all people. Sorry to disappoint, but not everyone is the same.

saeyo · Sep 01, 2011, 05:28 AM // 05:28

Im new to the game....but I played everquest for years and started wow from beta up until now. I am not new to pvp. I find it funny so many are being belligerent and narcissistic about all of this. On top of that, they start going into psycho-babble about how we are hardwired to think their opinion of fun is fact. It's all opinions. If we were all the same...this world would be an utterly bland land of sheep/robots. Ugh! How awful?! I for one will do what III think is fun. Not what others think is fun.

Now, onto the subject. Sure pvp can be fun. I like pvp. I reached rank 14 many times in wow. (Back when I was still in college and didn't have bills, family, kids, real life to worry about.) I would do pvp if it didn't take 30 Mins ti even get started. By that time im normally logging off. My time is precious now-a-days. Lol

Reverend Dr · Sep 01, 2011, 05:29 AM // 05:29

Page 2 of the the pedantic 5 page derail.

saeyo · Sep 01, 2011, 05:35 AM // 05:35

I read the whole thread. Believe me. Im at work and playing on my phone procrastinating on this paperwork lol you were right as usual btw lol

cataphract · Sep 01, 2011, 06:10 AM // 06:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sankt Hallvard

I'm ready for your bad flames and misunderstood replies.
Knowing the quality of the average guruposter I know I will get retarded replies. But for the sake of everyone it would be nice if you a) read through everything I say before posting(yes, I know it's really too long.) and b) ask yourself: Why am I replying to this? Is it to serve my own expressive needs or do I have anything to contribute? Only the latter is really productive. Thanks for reading.

I cannot take seriously anyone who says that PVE is for losers and proceeds writing how good AB is no matter how much effort they've put into making their post.

AB is not PVP. It's a format to be played for teh lulz.

godis · Sep 01, 2011, 06:50 AM // 06:50

It seems to me that all PvP'ers do is whine about bots and smurfing(?) and bad rewards and ladder manipulation and.... I think I'll stick to my PvE with my PUG free 7 heroes partys.

Gill Halendt · Sep 01, 2011, 07:04 AM // 07:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reverend Dr

I'm going to let you all in on a big 'secret' about most of the PvP community. We compartmentalize. On forums, particularly the QQ forum, we tend to lash out and act like asshats because its the internet and its just words.

So you'd rather act like asshats because "it's just words" and let a negative stereotype form? Ok...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lanier

Sorry to disappoint, but not everyone is the same.

This. Or "Why generalization is for losers".

I used to play PvP over PvE and than quit PvP for multiple reasons.

My desire of competition comes out in other fields in real life, be it my job or sports. The game is currently one of my preferred ways to take a break and enjoy some relaxing time at my own pace, so PvP is not for me. Not anymore.

TheRakeman · Sep 01, 2011, 07:36 AM // 07:36

Why I don't PvP:

Like many games, Guild Wars features both a single player/cooperative mode and a competitive mode. Different games have different levels of accessibility for the competitive mode. The problem with Guild Wars right now, IMO, is that you only have two options - casual or hardcore. There is no middle ground for someone who is interested in PvP but not to the point of making it a job. Or, perhaps, what should be the middle ground is considered terrible by most players and is more or less dead.

Casual players have FA/JQ/RA, AB doesn't have a large enough population to actively play, HA is dead and considered by most players to be terrible, Codex was never populated, and GvG has players but is extremely hard to break in to. Essentially getting players into GvG would require a step from Random Arenas to GvG. Not many people want to make such a step. By comparison, look at Team Fortress 2, or Call of Duty, or any other popular FPS. The vast majority of players play the "standard" game, while a minority of newer players play gimmicky or more accessible game type and a minority of elite players with a lot of time play on the competitive scene. Guild wars offers the gimmicky accessible game, the serious competitive game, and no middle ground worth talking about.

So at this point, why should I invest large amount of time into a 5 year old competitive game with hardly any players when I could play the single player/coop (PvE) and get just as much enjoyment as when it first came out? Why should I spend every night practicing for GvG when in the past 5 years tons of great competitive games with huge active player bases came out? I would be happy to play a format that was both interesting and able to be enjoyed without daily time commitment, but as that doesn't exist I have no desire for PvP at all.

Guild Wars 2 looks like a step in the right direction, though. World PvP seems to be a "standard" option with GvG for people who want to dedicate more time to something deeper. Plus, with a larger community, it might actually be worth it to spend time practicing for PvP.

**cosyfiep** · Sep 01, 2011, 08:01 AM // 08:01

I dont pvp, I dont like it, I dont see the need for it...however, I do know others enjoy smashing the bunk out of other people, so there is a place for it, just not in my gaming.

Not everyone has the overwhelming need to beat others up. (yelling is enough for me).

I enjoy questing, I enjoy cartography (loved geography in college)...I like ROLE playing. pvp doesnt offer me any of those things. (not planning on gw2 either--one game is plenty for me).

my_fat_monkey · Sep 01, 2011, 08:40 AM // 08:40

I've enjoyed casual PvP here and there; mockup builds in RA, R/P in FA etc.... I have never really bothered with competitive PvP.

This thread has inspired me to get better.
Thank you and goodbye.

chullster · Sep 01, 2011, 09:22 AM // 09:22

I started playing GW when I saw my girlfriend playing it, at that time I was a hardcore Battlefield 2 player, so the action on the pvp side of GW looked a bit slow.

Anyway, to spend time playing with her I bought into it and made a warrior, and did pve with him. Then I tried AB. Then went a little crazy and bought enough character slots to have 1 pvp character for each profession. This was when JQ/FA were ghost towns. AB is still the most fun arena to get some quick semi-organised pvp action. When we had the double reward weekend for AB just recently, it felt like I was back in those days, and I miss them.

Now AB is dead due to having low rewards compared to other competitive missions, which is a shame, but I agree with you OP about AB in the main.

PvP in general is dying and being degraded by a few things, even by so called pvp guilds themselves. Every time I join a PvP guild so there's a chance of some more organised games in HA or GvG, the guild ends up wanting to take the easy way out, just to grind titles or boxes:

Syncing.

I used to think this was only detrimental to RA, as that's where it's most obvious, but now, 5 or 6 pvp guilds later, I've found they all wanted to sync RA, Codex, HA (dead hours with multi-launch) and use other smurf guilds in their alliance to sync GvG.

There's really no point in most pvp now unless it's just to pass some time until something else takes your interest. The people who still pvp for competition are at the very top end now, with all the farmers beneath them. The majority of pvp guilds recruiting for low end players just want more people to help them manipulate the various arenas, for whatever reason.

To round off, I beat my old BF2 game, had thousands of hours of play, felt the highs of awesomeness and the depths of stupidity all in what GW calls pvp, and I called CQ mode back then. Most pvp in gw now is equivalent to being in a BF2 clan where everyone uses an aim-bot, because they can't shoot straight, or time servers just to grind medals/ribbons.

TL,DR: Anet not fixing the ability to sync join, allowing you to manipulate who you play against has pretty much destroyed most competition in all the PvP formats from RA to GvG. Why bother playing straight when you can get more wins fiddling it?

floor · Sep 01, 2011, 09:29 AM // 09:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jet

There is no point in playing PvP anymore. So anyone who are new to pvp and want to get into serious pvp your at least six years late. I'll list the reasons why there is no point in playing pvp.

1. The game is at least six years old. By now most players have climbed well into the hero/glad/champ titles. They are not willing to take in a beginner and teach them since this will increase their chance of losing and /ragequit. Apparently titles mean everything in GW.

2. Top players in PvP actually do not help new players break into PvP. Sure they offer advices and tactics but that only teaches very little. How can you put what you learn into play when you can't even get the opportunity to play due to rank discrimination?

3. If your answer is to form your own group of friends and play, you'll know how hard it is to get 8 players on at the same time.

4. Most people in the PvP community are asshats including top players. This is the main reason why pvers don't pvp. The transition from pve to pvp is too wide. Even if you do play with top players and you make a critical mistake your still going to be bashed for it. No one wants to lose. It's interesting how top players say titles don't matter but they post their titles and flaunt it on guild applications and in towns. Despite this being the internet, how you carry yourself shows what type of person you are irl. Old saying goes. If it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, it is a dam duck.

Bottom line is don't bother breaking into PvP your too late. Their is too much rank discrimination and elitist attitude which makes it near impossible.

Your not entirely wrong, but there are several things u have said that are somewhat inaccurate.

a) about half, if not more, of the current group of top PvP players didnt even start playing pvp seriously until well into 2008 - 2009. Sure this means they have at least a couple years experience, but it doesnt take 6 years to become a top player.

b) Titles can basically be obtained overnight these days by simply grinding the title weekends. There are many many players who go from champ 0 to almost champ 4 over the course of one gvg weekend. Getting into groups is more dependent on who your friends are, rather than ur actual ability.

c) Yes there are a lot of asshats in pvp. Fortunately most of them are HA/RA players, so the "better" players who play GvG simply avoid them.

d) Most of the raging in GvG is done by top players, in top guilds, directed at other top players who make mistakes when they should know better, presumably out of frustration. Beginners and Experienced players will pretty much only interact when playing in pug teams or smurfs, at which point its not as competitive so the more experienced players are far more relaxed about team mates making mistakes, and are generally more willing to help ppl learn.

e) You are 100% correct, it is probably too late to get into high end PvP for most people. I imagine its possible with a bit of luck and an experienced player willing to 1to1 mentor you. But basically there simply isnt enough time now before gw2's likely release in order to reach the top levels. But thats not to say that participating isnt worthwhile if you get the chance to join in, fun can be had at all levels, and if anything the higher up the ladder you get the less fun it can often become as people get more serious.

Iuris · Sep 01, 2011, 09:44 AM // 09:44

All too often we see threads with titles "Why don't people play PvP?" "PvP is dieing!" and similar. Including a recent one that was particularly ill conceived. All too often, these show a real lack of understanding of reasons why some people don't like to play PvP.

Here, I would like to point out at least some reasons why people don't like to play PvP, and some false conceptions that PvP players have about them.

-PvP rarely has a story behind it. The games are usually made abstract, maps symmetric, with rarely a reason provided for the happenings. Now, remember - GW is still an RPG, and many people do appreciate the story and immersion it offers. To these, PvP is, even all other aside, "bland". Note the overlap between Fort Aspenwood and Jade quarry, where such players (me included) actually can enjoy a bit of PvP.

-Players generally play games to relax while having fun. To spend some nice easy, relaxing time. PvP is not really receptive to this - it's an adrenaline fueled experience where you are constantly on the edge. Certainly NOT the place to relax. It's actually tiring. I have a job to tire me out, thank you.

-Linking to the above is the fact that PvP is hard. A new PvP player enters the arena where everyone else is already much more experienced. His first visits WILL end in series of defeats. Frustration sets in soon, and eventually the new PvP player will realize that the feeling of winning will require much hard work. Hard work? Wait a second, don't I already have a job for that? One I actualyl get money for?

-Some people are simply not competitive and would much prefer cooperation. PvP may simply go against their very nature.

-PvP "attitude". No matter how much people will deny it, the general PvP player attitude can be best described as "condescending". "PvP is the real game!" "Stop sucking!" "There's no playing for fun, only playing to win!". The terms "Scrub" and "Carebear". You know what they mean, because they are used ALL THE TIME. It doesn't matter if YOU personally don't, too many others do that that is the real attitude a PvE player faces.

-Solicitations from PvP players trying to get people to play PvP often feel like the PvP people are just looking for more newbies to abuse. "I need more fresh meat for me to slaughter!".

So, PvP guys, please realize that no matter how much you preach to the choir, you won't get converts. You are already talking to people who know they are carebears and scrubs AND PROUD OF IT!